Otenba (Spirited Girl)
Jun 14, 2017 13:23
There is the Japanese word "otenba" (おてんば), which refers to a spirited girl who has mannish character.
Otenba has been used since the Edo period, and there are various theories about its etymology.
The most famous one is a theory that it comes from the Dutch "ontembaar," which means "indomitable" or "irrepressible."
However, since "tenba" (てんば - which had the similar meaning of otenba) had been used before otenba spread in Japan, it's more natural to think that a prefix 'o' denoting polite has been attached to tenba.
Also, it's thought that tenba was derived from the adjective "tebashi" or "tebashikoi," which once used to mean that someone is alert/active.
Incidentally, the kanji "お転婆" of otenba is just a phonetic equivalent character.
Otenba has been used since the Edo period, and there are various theories about its etymology.
The most famous one is a theory that it comes from the Dutch "ontembaar," which means "indomitable" or "irrepressible."
However, since "tenba" (てんば - which had the similar meaning of otenba) had been used before otenba spread in Japan, it's more natural to think that a prefix 'o' denoting polite has been attached to tenba.
Also, it's thought that tenba was derived from the adjective "tebashi" or "tebashikoi," which once used to mean that someone is alert/active.
Incidentally, the kanji "お転婆" of otenba is just a phonetic equivalent character.
おてんば
男勝りの活発な女の子をさす日本語として、「おてんば」があります。
おてんばは江戸時代以降用いられており、語源には諸説あります。
その中で、「馴らすことができない」「手に負えない」を意味するオランダ語 "ontembaar" から来ているというものが有名です。
しかし、おてんばが浸透する以前に同様の意味を持つ「てんば」が使われていたことから、これに丁寧の接頭語「お」が付いたと考えたほうが自然です。
「てんば」は、かつて機敏なさまを表した形容詞「てばし」「てばしこい」が変化したものと考えることができます。
※漢字の「お転婆」は当て字です。
男勝りの活発な女の子をさす日本語として、「おてんば」があります。
おてんばは江戸時代以降用いられており、語源には諸説あります。
その中で、「馴らすことができない」「手に負えない」を意味するオランダ語 "ontembaar" から来ているというものが有名です。
しかし、おてんばが浸透する以前に同様の意味を持つ「てんば」が使われていたことから、これに丁寧の接頭語「お」が付いたと考えたほうが自然です。
「てんば」は、かつて機敏なさまを表した形容詞「てばし」「てばしこい」が変化したものと考えることができます。
※漢字の「お転婆」は当て字です。
No. 1 IrishAlex's correction
- Otenba (Spirited Girl)
- This sentence is perfect! No correction needed!
- There is the Japanese word "otenba" (おてんば), which refers to a spirited girl who has mannish character.
- The Japanese word "otenba" (おてんば) refers to a spirited girl who has a mannish character.
- Otenba has been used since the Edo period, and there are various theories about its etymology.
- This sentence is perfect! No correction needed!
- The most famous one is a theory that it comes from the Dutch "ontembaar," which means "indomitable" or "irrepressible."
- This sentence is perfect! No correction needed!
- However, since "tenba" (てんば - which had the similar meaning of otenba) had been used before otenba spread in Japan, it's more natural to think that a prefix 'o' denoting polite has been attached to tenba.
- This sentence is perfect! No correction needed!
- Also, it's thought that tenba was derived from the adjective "tebashi" or "tebashikoi," which once used to mean that someone is alert/active.
- Also, it's thought that tenba was derived from the adjective "tebashi" or "tebashikoi," which used to mean that someone is alert/active.
- Incidentally, the kanji "お転婆" of otenba is just a phonetic equivalent character.
- This sentence is perfect! No correction needed!
Well written!
Toru
Thank you so much for correcting my post! (^^)
Thank you so much for correcting my post! (^^)
No. 2 Dave's correction
- Otenba (Spirited Girl)
-
Otenba (Spirited Girl)
Perfectly fine.
If this were truly a tile and presented by itself you might consider one of these patterns:
Otenba (おてんば - Spirited Girl)
Otenba (Spirited Girl - おてんば)
I can make arguments for both.
- There is the Japanese word "otenba" (おてんば), which refers to a spirited girl who has mannish character.
-
There is the Japanese word, "otenba" (おてんば), that refers to a spirited girl who has a mannish character.
word "otenba" --> word, "otenba"
The phrase "otenba" (おてんば) could be considered a nonessential appositive. Nonessential appositives are surrounded by quotes.
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/appositives
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has mannish character --> has a mannish character - You need a determiner here.
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which refers --> that refers - "Refers to a spirited girl..." is a restrictive clause. You can't get rid of it and leave the basic meaning of the sentence unchanged.
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/which-versus-that-0
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I like your sentence structure better than this alternative:
"Otenba" (おてんば) is a Japanese word that refers to a spirited girl who has a mannish character.
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There's an old fashioned word, tomboy, that is effectively the same as otenba. The term is seldom used these days because it's not politically correct (PC).
- Otenba has been used since the Edo period, and there are various theories about its etymology.
- This sentence is perfect! No correction needed!
- The most famous one is a theory that it comes from the Dutch "ontembaar," which means "indomitable" or "irrepressible."
-
The most famous one is a theory that it came from the Dutch "ontembaar," which means "indomitable" or "irrepressible."
comes --> came - For consistency's sake.
- However, since "tenba" (てんば - which had the similar meaning of otenba) had been used before otenba spread in Japan, it's more natural to think that a prefix 'o' denoting polite has been attached to tenba.
-
However, since "tenba" (てんば - which had the similar meaning of otenba) had been used before otenba spread in Japan, it's more natural to think that the prefix 'o', denoting politeness, was attached/added to tenba.
has been --> had been - For consistency's sake.
a prefix --> the prefix - It wasn't any old prefix it was the 'o' prefix.
polite --> politeness(?) - That's what I'd use if this were a simple English sentence. Does it denote politeness or is it an example of a "polite prefix", if there is such a thing as that?
attached --> attached/added - "Attached" is fine but "added" may be more commonly used.
You might consider:
which had the similar meaning of otenba -- which had a meaning similar to otenba
- Also, it's thought that tenba was derived from the adjective "tebashi" or "tebashikoi," which once used to mean that someone is alert/active.
-
Also, it's thought that tenba was derived from the adjective "tebashi" or "tebashikoi," which once used to mean that someone is alert/active.
Did tenba used to mean that someone was alert/active? I'm confused.
- Incidentally, the kanji "お転婆" of otenba is just a phonetic equivalent character.
-
Incidentally, the kanji "お転婆" of otenba is just a phonetic equivalent character.
Time to show my ignorance again.
otenba - romaji
おてんば - hiragana
お - o
て - te
ん - n
ば - ba
お転婆 - kanji
お - o - hiragana(?) - this acts as a prefix which indicates politeness(?)
転 (G> translocation), 婆( G> old woman) - two random kanji that were paired in this order sometime in the mysterious past to produce the kanji 転婆 (G> tomorrow) which, for some mysterious reason, just happened to be pronounced てんば.
And, if you put them altogether in this sequence お転婆 it just magically happens to be pronounced おてんば eventough the individual components do not add up, sound wise, to おてんば. this is why you wrote "... the kanji "お転婆" of otenba is just a phonetic equivalent character."
Right?
Even worse, to my sensibilities, the combined meaning of the individual components お, 転, and 婆 don't have any relationship to otenba (AKA tomboy) either.
By English parsing standards written Japanese is a collection of random shapes that do not have any sensible/comprehensible rules as to how they are combined and sequenced.
Sigh... this is an interesting challenge. At least Japanese children have the luxury of learning how to speak and understand spoken Japanese before they have to learn (By brute memorization?) written Japanese.
Dave
Kanotown son,
Please forgive me for my snarky last entry. Today's been a challenging day and it's almost 3am of the next day. .By the way, thank you for something that pleasantly sidetracked my mind. ;o)
Kanotown son,
Please forgive me for my snarky last entry. Today's been a challenging day and it's almost 3am of the next day. .By the way, thank you for something that pleasantly sidetracked my mind. ;o)
Dave
I'm sorry Kanotown san and not Kanotown son.
An inspiration!
Did Google Translate cause me problems again?
て - te
ん - n
ば - ba
お転婆 - kanji
Since some kanjis may have more than one pronunciation (associated with different meanings) there may be meanings of 転 and 婆 that just happen to be pronounced "ten" and "ba."? If that were true then paring 転婆 would make sense.
Am I close?
I'm sorry Kanotown san and not Kanotown son.
An inspiration!
Did Google Translate cause me problems again?
て - te
ん - n
ば - ba
お転婆 - kanji
Since some kanjis may have more than one pronunciation (associated with different meanings) there may be meanings of 転 and 婆 that just happen to be pronounced "ten" and "ba."? If that were true then paring 転婆 would make sense.
Am I close?
Toru
Thank you so much always for correcting my post and letting me know such various expressions!
> polite --> politeness(?) - That's what I'd use if this were a simple English sentence. Does it denote politeness or is it an example of a "polite prefix", if there is such a thing as that?
Sorry, I could misunderstand your question. But I think that it denotes politeness and it's also an example of a "polite prefix." In Japan, the prefix, 'o' or 'go' is often added to various words to be polite, such as omiyage, obento, obenkyo, goiken, and gojitaku.
> Did tenba used to mean that someone was alert/active? I'm confused.
Yes, since tenba had a meaning almost same to tebashi (tebashi meant that someone was alert/active), it's thought that tenba came from tebashi.
> お - o - hiragana(?) - this acts as a prefix which indicates politeness(?)
Yes, お is usually written in hiragana, but you can use the kanji, '御,' instead of お. Unfortunately, I don't have an accurate answer to your question. Assuming that otenba came from tenba, the answer is yes -- お is a polite prefix (I believe it though). However, if the fact was that temba came from the Dutch, お has no meaning.
> this is why you wrote "... the kanji "お転婆" of otenba is just a phonetic equivalent character." Right?
Yes, that's right.
> Even worse, to my sensibilities, the combined meaning of the individual components お, 転, and 婆 don't have any relationship to otenba (AKA tomboy) either.
> By English parsing standards written Japanese is a collection of random shapes that do not have any sensible/comprehensible rules as to how they are combined and sequenced.
> Sigh... this is an interesting challenge. At least Japanese children have the luxury of learning how to speak and understand spoken Japanese before they have to learn (By brute memorization?) written Japanese.
Yes, unfortunately, there are a lot of Japanese terms like that. At first they were written in hiragana, but later, substitute kanji came to be used despite having no relevant meaning. Therefore, it might be quite difficult for foreigners to learn Japanese language including kanji.
Thank you so much always for correcting my post and letting me know such various expressions!
> polite --> politeness(?) - That's what I'd use if this were a simple English sentence. Does it denote politeness or is it an example of a "polite prefix", if there is such a thing as that?
Sorry, I could misunderstand your question. But I think that it denotes politeness and it's also an example of a "polite prefix." In Japan, the prefix, 'o' or 'go' is often added to various words to be polite, such as omiyage, obento, obenkyo, goiken, and gojitaku.
> Did tenba used to mean that someone was alert/active? I'm confused.
Yes, since tenba had a meaning almost same to tebashi (tebashi meant that someone was alert/active), it's thought that tenba came from tebashi.
> お - o - hiragana(?) - this acts as a prefix which indicates politeness(?)
Yes, お is usually written in hiragana, but you can use the kanji, '御,' instead of お. Unfortunately, I don't have an accurate answer to your question. Assuming that otenba came from tenba, the answer is yes -- お is a polite prefix (I believe it though). However, if the fact was that temba came from the Dutch, お has no meaning.
> this is why you wrote "... the kanji "お転婆" of otenba is just a phonetic equivalent character." Right?
Yes, that's right.
> Even worse, to my sensibilities, the combined meaning of the individual components お, 転, and 婆 don't have any relationship to otenba (AKA tomboy) either.
> By English parsing standards written Japanese is a collection of random shapes that do not have any sensible/comprehensible rules as to how they are combined and sequenced.
> Sigh... this is an interesting challenge. At least Japanese children have the luxury of learning how to speak and understand spoken Japanese before they have to learn (By brute memorization?) written Japanese.
Yes, unfortunately, there are a lot of Japanese terms like that. At first they were written in hiragana, but later, substitute kanji came to be used despite having no relevant meaning. Therefore, it might be quite difficult for foreigners to learn Japanese language including kanji.
Toru
There is no need to apologize at all. Since I'm not yet an advanced English speaker, it's difficult for me to understand detailed emotions contained in sentences, haha.
> Since some kanjis may have more than one pronunciation (associated with different meanings) there may be meanings of 転 and 婆 that just happen to be pronounced "ten" and "ba."? If that were true then paring 転婆 would make sense.
Yes, many kanjis have more than one pronunciation, and some are associated with different meanings. Your thought is very interesting, but I think that parsing 転婆 don't make sense here.
There is no need to apologize at all. Since I'm not yet an advanced English speaker, it's difficult for me to understand detailed emotions contained in sentences, haha.
> Since some kanjis may have more than one pronunciation (associated with different meanings) there may be meanings of 転 and 婆 that just happen to be pronounced "ten" and "ba."? If that were true then paring 転婆 would make sense.
Yes, many kanjis have more than one pronunciation, and some are associated with different meanings. Your thought is very interesting, but I think that parsing 転婆 don't make sense here.